Looks, Conformation, Style "That looks ugly to me&quo

[Craig Doherty]

Dale,

You are fighting a losing battle here. What the majority of the people responding here are talking about are the standards for American Field and AFTCA sanctioned field trials. What has developed as the standards of performance began in the late 1800s and continue to evolve today -- they have nothing to do with the standards of the three organizations you have listed. Expecting these trials to change their way of looking at things so that the run of the mill hunting dog who reguraly puts meat before the gun can be competitive is like asking the NBA to lower the hieght of the basket so a six foot tall old white guy can dunk or to make the size of a hockey goal equal to that of a soccer goal so it would be easier to score. The guy with the good hunting dog that doesn't have any class or style needs to find shoot-to-retrieve or hunt test style trials to run in where the goals are objective and any one who can reach them gets a placement. Those trials are inclusive. The trials like the North American and the International Woodcock are not and should not try to be inclusive but should strive to attract and place the best bird dogs that meet the subjective standards of style and class.

[D Hackett]

Craig,

Be it through hunting, trialling or running dogs I've met a lot of good folks that I am now proud to call friends. I'd like to see more people come out to trials, but it seems to be difficult to draw new folks in. When we're running in our area, I try to get anyone I know who has any type of bird dog to come out and see a trial hoping someone else might catch the bug. Unfortunately, in this busy day and age it's hard to get folks to get involved.

If you look back at my "posts" you might notice that I didn't get involved in this thread until someone posted that they felt it would be a waste of their time and money to attempt to run their dog in a field trial because it might have a degree of tail bend. They now know we also hold "Gun Dog" stakes even if it is not clear what exactly that means. (Trials for hunting dogs or "meat dogs" as we call them... dogs that put meat on the table)

As for tails... Personally, I think too much emphasis is placed on them when dogs are running. The only time a tail bothers me is when it's heading in the opposite direction of where I want the dog to go. Maybe I should have just posted "Field Trials are more fun then skinnin' weasels." or "You don't know what your misssin." Instead I posted some stuff hoping to get some interaction. The result... the site got more activity in the last 6 days then it had seen since Oct. & Nov. 2009.

The only "battle" I was trying to fight was to get more people to participate in discussion on a message board that seemed to lack activity in the last few months. I don't think I lost that one. I CAN see that by poking a frozen hornets nest I've angered some of the sleeping bees. However, I'd like to draw your attention to the top of the webpage where it says:

A FRIENDLY MEETING PLACE FOR ALL BIRD DOG ENTHUSIASTS

Thanks for participating. Maybe next time I'll pick a gentler subject.

Buzz buzz

~ The patience of the hunter is always greater then that of the prey. ~

[Tim Tufts]

I don't think anger ever entered into the discussion that has taken place. I generally have not posted here but have been a regular visitor. I think Ryan's periodic discussion topics have kept your site alive and much more interesting & friendly than several others that I could name.
If expressing an opinion that differs from the moderator's is viewed as anger and inappropriate the site will quickly devolve into another facebook wannabe.
If my comments & opinions have angered others here I apologize.

[Jeff from Maine]

There is a human responce to think if something is different it is wrong.

If someone has or does something different than you , it is not wrong just different. Long tails, short tails, fast dogs, slow dogs. They are all good.

The thing we need to remember is Field Trialing unlike Hunt Test or Gun Dog events are competitive. Which means someone wins and the rest lose. If you go to a field trial with good numbers of dogs entered, there will be dogs that have it all. They are fast, stylish, poker straight tails and are getting it done. If you have a dog that is missing one thing, your in the catagory of non-winners. That really is how competitive it is.

On this thread or another, someone asked what class or style was. I let my female go the other day and she took off like a bolt of lightning in chest deep snow. She was weaving and dodging through alders and dapple birch trees in pursuit of birds. I was grinning from ear to ear with a tingle in my spine thnking "Look at that friggin dog go!" That is style and class.

I like to hear Tim and Ryan and Dales thoughts and comments. Heck I even look forward to Mikels responces.

[MJ]

Tim,
Your comments are greatly appreciated. Ryan introduced an interesting topic similar to another one posted on another board, about self relocation. The question still stands: when a dog has seemingly done enough to earn a placement, and a judge, because of an underbite, throws it out; is the decision correct or incorrect? Somehow we got off on tail set.

[Jeff from Maine]

Most people look at the negative.

The judge didn't use the dog because of its underbite.

In most cases the judge didn't use the dog because the other dog didn't have an underbite.

The problem could arise when a judge starts looking at differnt negatives. I could see where a judge may favor a bad bite over a bad tail, both physical triats. But what about a judge that prefers a straight tail over a a good race? What about the judge that rates physical confirmation over ground application.

Fortunaley in todays trials a lot of top contenders have it all. They are a joy to watch on the ground and pretty on point.

[MJ]

Thanks Jeff, that is clsss,but boy did Dales dog look good in the snow.Class yes.The difficulty sometimes arrises when judgement and judges enter the scene.Where does the standard come from? Yes the White Book of suggested standards and procedures is a beginning along with much experience.Bill Browns book is excellent.We are one of the few with no official training or accreditation.Maybe the Field and or the AFTCA should look into this.
Should the dog in Ryans Post placed under the circumstances given?

[D Hackett]

For Ryan's original post...

Field Trial judges are usually asked to judge events because they have relative knowledge and respected experience in the sport. The resulting placements from any trial are a cumulation of the judges' decisions on what they saw. They walk every brace and usually see the up front action. They may also tend to see things some of us might miss while following in the gallery and trying to tip toe around puddles.

The judge here was not out of line. He's a judge. Their discretion is exactly that... their discretion. Like a referee in any sport they have a tough job to do and sometimes the calls are not agreed with by all participants or on-lookers. None the less they have final say. Even if you don't agree with the call you have to accept it. In this situation it was a weekend trial. If the dog was a contender to place today, chances are it will be a contender to place at another trial with different judges which may or may not result in a different outcome. I'd rather go home empty handed then have my dog take home a win due to a judgement call that I later found out was somehow questionable or got reversed.

=====================================================

For Jeff's question on style or class...

To me "style" is an individual thing that belongs to the dog. It's not "does the dog conform to a certain style?" It's more how the dog performs his overall job. How the dog runs, hunts, reacts to changing conditions and circumstances. How he points and handles his birds as well as if he looks like he's having a blast doing what he was born to do. That all works into the dog's style when I'm watching. Dog #10 doesn't have to run as fast as dogs #1-9 to impress me. He just has to impress me in his own way.

Trials are competitive, but mostly for the people running dogs. I've yet to see a dog return to the truck sad or disappointed that he didn't find a bird. I have to agree with Jeff when he said "most people look at the negative" and I presume he was still referring to the dogs. I've been guilty of the same, but mostly towards my own dog when I've seen him give less of a performance then he gave the day before.

As for "class"... I'm still trying to figure out what "class" means when it comes to dogs. It's more a term I'd use for how a handler handles their team's performance in the woods and on the journey back to the truck.

[Craig Doherty]

In the spirit of keeping the discussion going when its too cold and icy to run dogs -- Class is hard to define but easy to recognize -- when a dog runs with a smooth, ground eating gait, hits the objectives, runs to the limits of its bell, listens to its handler, points accurately with intense style, and is confirmationally correct -- it's easy to say "that's a class bird dog." When it doesn't do all those things then it's . . . .

[MJ]

Should the dog in the origonal post place or not?

[Craig Doherty]

Actually, an extremely bad bite from a breeder's perspective is as bad, if not worse, than some other conformational flaws. If this bite was so bad that it was noticeable from 25 yards away, then no, don't place it and tell the guy why you didn't, if he asks -- although he'll probably think your an SOB with your head you know where, and he'll tell anyone who'll listen how you screwed him out of a placement. But if you place the dog, you are telling the owner that he's got a really good dog and next thing you know he'll be having whole litters of malformed, ugly dogs.

[MJ]

Thanks Craig,
Granted it would not be good to continue breeding underbite. It looked like, from the original post, that the dog had done enough in this weekend trial to earn a placement. Why not place the dog and tell the handler the difficulty involved? (Positive or negative judging. Where does Guard Rail and his offspring fit?)

[Craig Doherty]

If you are doing what's right for the breed and the sport how is that negative judging -- sometimes it's hard to do the right thing. The easy out is to just place the dog because it had more finds then the other dogs or whatever criteria you're using. You have to look at the whole picture of the animal and the performance it put down.

And why do you keep bringing up Guardrail????

[MJ]

I think that was what Ryan Was alluding to in the origonal post.

[MJ]

Re Andy Wert, Guardrail question Cover dog site.